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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 6, 2008 1:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

I take it as a compliment. Frankly, I've been pleasantly surprised many a time here; never thought I'd find such enjoyment of the music of the boys, a few folks I am happy to call friends, and now and again, a damn fine little diversion on topics as diverse as sports, military history (who knew four people could quote chapter and verse on the speeches of Roosevelt, Churchill and Chamberlain??? It boggles the mind!), politics, religion, and cowboy prose.

And, it just goes with my job that I spend so much time on the computer that these 5 minutes per hr I waste (maybe not) here are certainly as productive as any I spend with folks in my neighborhood (with whom I have less in common in most instances)...

To provide a more succinct answer, EBP, I do very much like the way someone expressed it above. I am more or less a Keynesian, but his quaintness might need a significant upgrade!

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Nov 6, 2008 1:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

Interesting article Earl posted; read during lunch. Obviously Cass Susstein will play a large role in advising Obama, but that oxymoronic (!) term "Libertarian paternalism" - how did McCain/Palin not seize on that? I did a double take.

Oh well, we've got the curse of the Chinese (in more ways than one): we do live in interesting times.

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Poster: patourkid Date: Nov 6, 2008 2:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

So who won the election? All I got out of all the news cast was BLA BLA BLA......something or other.....BLA BLA BLA.......we're all screwed.....BLA BLA BLA....recession......BLA BLA BLA.....but every morning when I go to my JOB to MAKE MONEY to pay for my nice house in the suburbs all I see is the sun shining and people driving expensive cars to their expensive houses. Our economy is down RIGHT NOW......look at a chart of the stock market of the last 25 years........WE ARE WAY BETTER OFF THAN WE WERE THEN!!!! So there are a lot of STUPID people getting a HARD lesson on how to budget their money.....don't buy what you can't afford, there are a lot of GREEDY bankers going under because they were giving loans to people who they KNEW couldn't afford them. Americans are LAZY and GREEDY we want, want, want. OH MY I CANT AFFORD GAS FOR MY CADILLAC ESCALADE!!!! *GASP* the world is gonna end!!! As Americans we need to wake up to the reality WE LIVE HIGH ON THE HOG!!!! Sure things are looking like there gonna go downhill.....NOT TO HELL....just downhill. We wouldn't know how to act if things REALLY got hard, how about living in a country where you have to walk 2 miles to get dirty water out of a well thats drying up as we speak, and crops won't grow because it doesn't rain!?!?? Most of us on this board are at least eating a meal every day, it seems to me like Americans just expect that because they're American they deserve to have it easy......wrong......ok enough of my rant.....how bout them Eyes??????? I hear they were SMOKIN in 73', But how could that be the economy was WAY below where it is today!!!!???? *GASP* maybe money and politics aren't the only things that matter in the world. I guarantee if you ask someone who witnessed a 73'Eyes what they were thinking about while Jerry was blowing their mind the answer WONT be POLITICS!!!!!

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Nov 6, 2008 3:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYSx6b96_Zs

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Poster: patourkid Date: Nov 6, 2008 4:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

YEEEEEEAAAAHHHHH BBBOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!! I once rocked a clock like that .......still never made it to an appointment on time. So I retired it.

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Poster: patourkid Date: Nov 6, 2008 4:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok&;feature=related


"I blame the liberal media"......now THAT IS FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 6, 2008 4:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

Well, all I know is that my retirement account suggests there is a connection between Wall Street and My Street.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Nov 6, 2008 5:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

that whole thing about investing in beer and recycling the cans doesn't seem like such a bad strategy right about now....

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Nov 6, 2008 5:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

This place is getting crazier and crazier. Now the heading reads "...beats sports."

Not to THIS sports fan it doesn't.

Listen, there's a reason Harry Truman once said the only economist he ever wanted to hear from was a one-armed economist. When asked why he said "Because then I wouldn't have to hear him say 'and that's how it should be done, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND..."

Point being that you can't get two economists to agree on what the weather is outside, much less the best way to handle the economy, so I doubt a bunch of DeadHeads, as occassionally capable of scrambled intellect as we at times might be, are going to get to the bottom of America's economic plight, especially on this forum with hijacked threads, Sarah Palin jokes (keep 'em comin') and forays into the land of YouTube every two minutes.

But since Earl did pose the question--yes, I still believe he narrowed the framework to fit his own argument and decided for Obama what Obama's economic plan is by using the old 'essentially he means this' construct--at least he didn't resort to calling me, a person he's never actually met, an asshole, so i believe I do owe him--if he's still listening--the courtesy of a serious reply.

I will, however, stick to my own simplistic view, which is this: Whatever has happened economically the last 8 years has been utter faiure. Do we really need any more proof? And it boils down simply to de-regulation run wild. Foxes in charge of the henhouses. I do not believe in crushing government oversight, but as WTell has said, SOME regulation is needed so things like 'credit default swaps' aren't allowed to ruin peoples' lives.

One more thing: Obama is scheduled to give a nationally broadcast speech on his initial plans for the economy to be carried live across most media outlets tomorrow afternoon, I believe. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong--I think it's at 2:20pm).

shouldn't we at least wait to hear what he has to say before claiming to know what he wants to do and declaring it a failure?

and finally, let's give Jery the final word on economics:

"same old story, and I know it's been told: some like jelly jelly, some like gold. Many a man's done a terrible thing...just to get baby a shiny diamond ring."

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Nov 6, 2008 7:18pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

Thanks for the answer, no sabotage intended, no preemptive strikes, just a change in the discourse and dialogue. Meaning, I believe that you would like me to take your point of view seriously...and if you're going to speak with a "voice of authority" there must be some underlying and resonant philosophy behind your convictions.

Simply stating that Bush sucks and fucked up the last 8 years is simple minded, requires no thought and carries no authority...even if it's a statement of fact. On the other hand, if you were to reply "supply side economics has clearly not worked, and it's probably due to a lack of oversight and shoddy regulation." Then the dialogue is engaged and the intellect at work.

Thus the economic challenge. Just asking for some logic and reasoning rather than emotional displays of anger and distrust. I apologize for the asshole comment, but it was a question of treating someone with an opposing viewpoint in the same manner.

I agree apologists for Bush are pathetic, if and when they fail to make a case for their argument. Just like those of the opposing view. Pointing to failure and the dismal state of the world, then selecting a candidate because he just has to be better than the shit we got now doesn't seem to me to be of value, authoritative, or even reasonable. Show me the features and benefits of your position, I may have a case against it, but at least an exchange of some merit has occurred, rather than dismissing it because Obama has big ears, for example.

Finally, I would assume that when speaking either ill or well of Jerry or the Dead, you would probably like your opinion to carry some meaning. Saying Jerry was a junkie and he sucked at guitar, I saw him play in '94 and was just an old fat man. (Might be true, but doesn't carry the weight of any one that cares enough to be informed.)

So if you, or Spaced or anyone at all want to engage me about politics, religion, guns or maybe even the Dead, it might be polite to assume that my point of view may have some merit, even if it doesn't agree with yours. Likewise, I should treat you and others the same respect I ask for.

By the way, bigger brains than ours argue the merits of economics with the same amount of disagreement. Nobody firmly knows the odds of success or failure of Obama's strategerie, only the likes and dislikes. I for one can't afford to have him fail, so he better be the Messiah.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Nov 7, 2008 7:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

Earl >>>On the other hand, if you were to reply "supply side economics has clearly not worked, and it's probably due to a lack of oversight and shoddy regulation." Then the dialogue is engaged and the intellect at work. >>>

What is supply-side economics, and has it really ever been practiced since Nixon?

I under it it as voodoo economics for mass media, but nothing really attempted.

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Nov 7, 2008 7:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

Spaced: At the end of the day, it wasn't about economic theory, it was about generating respectful dialogue between folks that have opposing views. Rather than accusing someone of being brainwashed by Fox or MSNBC for that matter, take the dialogue to the next level. Rather than calling folks sycophants of the current administration, elevate the rhetorical into the intellectual...take them to task for their positions. Again, if you say something and want your opinion to be treated as the voice of authority, saying "Bush Sucks" doesn't reflect an informed opinion, only a biased one.

For all kinds of reasons, I find hatred and misplaced criticism in politics not only to be counter-productive, but disrespectful. I feel like at minimum, I have the capacity to see through the rhetorical nuances and waves of bullshit that both parties try so desperately make hay with. Frankly, political discourse during and election cycle is aimed at folks that have little in the way of a philosophical anchor, more toward those that can easily be swayed. We should aim higher.

Anyway, it's enough, if at least here, we can agree to disagree in a respectful manner.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Nov 7, 2008 3:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

Well, Earl, I actually think we're getting somewhere.

Here's the deal: I'm not an economist, and even the "experts" get it wrong more often than not (see: Greenspan, Alan).

But I think I did make clear my general feeling on economic philosophy, which is that I do NOT favor Reagen-styled "trickle down" because it assumes that helping the rich get richer (i.e. capital gains tax cuts, corporate welfare, de-regulation so widespread it fosters the kind of culture that allows golden parachutes for CEO's who run their companies into the ground) will translate into helping folks who drag their asses out of bed at 4am to drive buses or work in the ER, what have you, and are expected to put their kids thru college on a $40,000 a year salary.

Those folks are NOT going to get better economically under "trickle down" b/c the rich have a way of--instead of wanting to share that good fortune (i mean fortune in the literal sense, not luck, though some, like Donald Trump, who start life w.a $30 Million inheritance are just that)--INCREASING their own. They have 2 houses? They want 3. They took 4 vacations to the Alps to go skiing last year? Now they want to add a 5th to Fiji for a warm weather break. There is no requirement for them to share their wealth (nor SHOULD there be) so telling people that giving them tax breaks b/c eventually that money will help the middle class is bullshit.

Now, I KNOW you hate looking backwards, but I'm sorry, you sometimes HAVE TO if you;re to prove your point...and the FACT is that in the past 8 years of right wing, conservative control, wages for the middle class have fallen, it's more prohibitive than EVER for middle class people to afford a decent college education for their kids, and the pay gap between the uber-rich and the poor has never been wider. So all I'm saying is: I don't know if Obama can change all that, but why would you hold it against me (or anyone) who looks at what WAS there, hear McCain say he wants to make the (ridiculous) Bush tax cuts permanent, and give NO signs he's about to change anything regarding the way things were done over those 8 years (and admitted publicly that economics is not his strong point), and decide to vote for the other guy????

Seems to me as well that since there's only 2 things that are guaranteed in this world--death and taxes--it's OK to at least TRY shifting a greater share of the tax burden to people making more than $180,000 a year...just to see if giving a break for a change to those folks who are pulling in $50,000 a year may help them get a leg up. Hey, that's just me...definition of a bleeding heart I guess. But I'm willing to try it, and i'm curious to see if it works. The middle class, such as it is, is shrinking. And in the state where I live, the local homeless shelters have had to turn away people because now a lot of folks who have jobs, and kids, and considered themselves middle class, are now finding themselves unable to stay in their homes or even afford rent. That's heartbreaking no matter what your political affiliation is, and I'm willing to give Obama-nomics (I just made that up!) a fair shake.

I'll tell you, though...he's no messiah, and if you expect him to be, you;ll be sadly disappointed.

Oh, and one final thing: What you said about Jerry, re: 1994, is exactly right. I can admit that loving the guy as much as I do and always will for the joy he brought me over the years. By '94 he was just a shell of his former self and it was sad.

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Nov 7, 2008 5:00am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

Nuff said. Almost like a unilateral accord. I knew we could do it. Both of us are guys working hard to make a go of it, and have a different view in the way government should play a role in our lives. Ultimately, I've never had a change in administration either make me rich or throw me under the bus. Then again, I have always been operating with a little more headroom in the past.

Peace out. Really.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Nov 7, 2008 6:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

Same to you, brother.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Nov 7, 2008 1:18pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

Earl >>>On the other hand, if you were to reply "supply side economics has clearly not worked, and it's probably due to a lack of oversight and shoddy regulation." Then the dialogue is engaged and the intellect at work. >>>

What is supply-side economics, and has it really ever been practiced since Nixon?

I understand it as "voodoo economics" for mass media, but nothing that really attempted.

I suppose the difference is that while both side tax & spend, the supply-side borrows extravagantly. The Keynesians, the "tax & spend" umbrella group I guess, might tax the lower classes less because they understand that the only the little people pay taxes.

The right wing could accurately be called "borrow, tax, & spend" which in a way out-Keynesians the Keynesians, except that their taxing and busniess policies weigh heavy in favor of the very wealthy.

I'm sticking with idea that these labels are even more meaning less than in the past. Will Obama's intention to investment in infracstrure project and reduce taxes a bit on the masses loosen purse strings? It's worked before and it seems like a matter of whether there's confidence in the country's future.

There should be but restructuring of management might be needed in several industries, like auto. Detroit seems uninterested in building good efficient cars, so why should they be saved without changing their products?

Well, it's just talk.

This post was modified by spacedface on 2008-11-07 21:18:31

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 6, 2008 6:10pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

# 2: yep you have to regulate cause people are greedy, and more recently, stupid. Can you believe the Lehman Stearns guys? They didn't want to lose everything...they hoped it would work...and if you're going to bail, they were more connected than anyone.

But, I digress...

Third, problem is, we have to see these problems before the develop, and that's tough...

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 6, 2008 6:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

Well, did it beat "discussion of sports?"

My bad.

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Poster: Styrofoam Cueball Date: Nov 6, 2008 5:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1973-10-29.sbd.miller.32352.sbeok.flac16

A grand '73 "Eyes"....and I swear there's a "Me And My Uncle" tease after Phil's solo... :)

This post was modified by Styrofoam Cueball on 2008-11-07 01:52:02

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Poster: patourkid Date: Nov 6, 2008 5:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

On an odd side note if you look at the bottom where thanks are given....."Thank you to Rob Eaton" I have heard MANY folks badmouthing DSO but most don't realize that these CRAZY matrix's we are lucky enough to be getting are OFTEN coming from Mr. Eaton's personal collection....for those of you who don't know Mr. Eaton is a member of DSO and Mr. Miller is they're sound man. But yeah THAT IS A GOOD EYES!!!!!!

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Nov 6, 2008 3:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

Yea, too bad we all get to pay to bail them out.

Funny, but I'm listening to 7/13/14 Scarlet-Touch-Fire and definitely was not thinking about politics, but now recall tht on the Monday after that show I saw Jesse speak to the masses at 84 DNC convention before slowly hitching back to Santa Cruz and then down 1 to Ventura.

And politics certainly played a role in getting the band to the pyramids (and probably prevented their planned trip to China).

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Poster: patourkid Date: Nov 6, 2008 3:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

Yeah after reading my post it does seem to come across a little more harsh than I had intended. And yeah your right we will do the bailing out. I was just taking smack more than anything, I'm a LITTLE bitter about not being allowed to vote because of a bullshit law that pretty much states "if we catch you with drugs you must be too stupid to vote." Even if you don't do drugs anymore and you paid ALL your fines, did your time, completed your probation and are now an upstanding tax paying member of society. I am good enough to pay taxes but too "stupid" to vote. Ahhhhhhhh.....this is why I DON'T talk politics LOLOL!!! How bout them Eyes????? LOL.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Nov 6, 2008 3:37pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: No need to apologize...beats sports!

that sucks and I do think it is wrong; what disturbs me even more (sorry) is how they'll boot people from public housing (sorry grannie - told the gang not to use our kitchen) or deny student aid. some young pup gets popped for smoking weed (or whatever) at 19 but then can't get necessary aid for school to better him/herself? Seems bassackwards.

Listend to an Eyes into Estimated the other day (recent TDIH) - that was different.